被访人: 李玉田(男，1940 年出生，山东省滨州市阳信县商店镇邹家村人)
采访人: 邹雪平(女，1985 年出生，草场地工作站驻站者)
采访时间: 2010 年 2 月 22 日
采访时长: 29 分 00 秒
李: 生活紧张，62 年就不碍事了，就是在 60 年那时候啊，60 年、59 年、58 年大兵团作战，58 年大兵团作战、大炼钢铁，大炼钢铁以后呢就是啥了，60 年的春天生活紧张， 到 61 年生活稍微好点了，那伤亡事故就不算了。那时候死了不少，到 62 年慢慢的生 活不紧张了，那不是集体化一步步生长起来了，就好点了。
李: “刮五风“ 是咋个事呢，为啥说中国第一个挨的饿呢，说是传说，咱也摸不上来，说是中苏友好，中国和苏联不错，中苏友好之后呢，主席和苏联恼了，应该是换来外债，换来 外债就生活紧张了，为了节约粮食换外债，实际上是上级是这么个口号。(挨饿)真很 还是咱这山东很，山东很还数着咱这个县很，咱这个县还数着咱这几个村很，这么着真 饿死了不少。咱这村起码得几十口人啊，有时候一天往外抬两，向外抬两死尸啊。到以 后“五风”不刮得，不生活紧张的，四五十天没有粮食仁啊，然后吃食堂，吃食堂以后这 才见点粮食仁，一步步这么来的。到的 61 年还不行呢。
李: 61 年，到 62 年那时就行了，基本上不吃那个啥了，吃这个萝卜、泔水、硫酸的都不算 了， 在 60 年那个时候你买都不着啊，都挨饿，谁家卖啊。
李: 哎呀，吃树皮，上地里采苜蓿，采苜蓿的时候呢，咱村里你爷爷那时候干着社长, 在西 北上有十多亩苜蓿，人们每天去摘那个菜的，摘苜蓿的，摘苜蓿家来后维持生活啊。这 是 60 年的春天，在地里采苜蓿，采野菜，这么着维持生活啊，有的是花上钱买那个地 瓜叶，这买到的就是好的，还有老些买不着的，说那些家产哪有啊，都买的，那个时候 谁家也没有，有也不卖啊，真吃不着的才卖那点东西来，60 年都荒的时候可了不得， 真饿死好多人了。尤其是咱这个村，老关王、邱家这三个村最厉害，那时候叫邹佩寰做 这个事，你爷爷叫他去打粮食的，上大么王他没去，呆了两天再去就没了，这么着饿死 这么多人。
李: 地呢?那时候是包公不包产啊，打来粮食来以后呢，12 个村为一个大队，咱就在大么 王大队，大队里所有啊，“就地普桑”啊妮，怎么能叫“就地普桑”呢?就是在你这个屋里， 地瓜刨了以后都撒在地里，粮食都瞎了，满地里都是棒子、棉花，着是多了，都瞎了， 好嘛生活紧张吗?这是 58 年大炼钢铁、“刮五风”，说产量好呢，数着 58 年好，那时把 农村里所有的大锅小锅都捡去大连钢铁，这样以后子地里吃，在地里住，深翻地，在地 里扎上卧铺，白天红旗招展，晚上万盏红灯啊。实际上说呢都把老百姓靠不行了，在地 里爱冻的时候，时间不是很长，干活的时候不多。要是你看看晚上公社的人来了，扑哧 扑哧干一伙，走了又在这玩，就这么个程度啊。
到以后这不挨饿，不挨饿的以后，在生产队里，棒子呢，都是靠天吃饭，又不浇地，种 上棒子一亩地打个三百、二百的，打三百五百的，一亩地打五百这就是好的了，麦子二 百多斤，二百多斤以后，为啥那个时候生活紧张，紧张到啥时候呢，在生产队的时候， 打的少，去种子、去口粮、去公粮、再去储备粮，剩下其余的才是口粮，就像打一千斤 的话，除去一百斤的种子，一百斤的储备粮，储备粮就是为了这队上的麦子，化肥费用 吧，再除去公粮，就像一千斤当中，除去三百，还有七百斤，这七百斤就在你这队里来 说，有一百口人也好，二百口人也好，这么着再分配这些，按“多劳多得”的原则三期分 工，怎么为三期呢?拿出七十来给劳力，那三十按公分，公分不够再罚款，那个时候是 这么个事。越劳力多的越好点，越是小孩们多的日子越难过。我是七口子，你三奶奶有 病，我个人顾这五口子吃吧，巴结这五口子吃以后，公分不够，到时候你得拿钱啊，拿 钱没有再在你的口粮里扣，日子是越来越不好过了。
到了以后，一分开地，就行了，按分开地，再就是种田，个人种个人的田，是这么着一 步一步来的，在集体里哪个户生活都够呛啊，不光咱这一个村啊，都是全部的一个态啊， 有个单位好，群众吃的好一点，哪个单位稍微差一点，生活就越艰苦点，实际上你那个 队就比俺这个队强。你大爷爷干着队长，他抓得了不紧点，那队里的产量就了不高点， 他们吃的质量比俺高点，俺这边呢，你玉堂爷爷就是清水他爹啊，他干着队长的时候呢， 和你大爷爷那时差不多，他有病就不干了，换了下边的人就不行了。
李:60 年最挨饿的时候，说那个详细事啊，我说不过来，为啥我说不过来呢，那时候我在 博山了。
李:我没在家，那个事呢我知道，60 年春天挨饿是把俺奶奶饿死的，俺娘饿死的，这个我 知道，都是三月份死的，只有你三奶个人在家的，58 年大炼钢铁我出去干工人的了， 真那个详细事啊，我莫不清楚，挑沟挖河这些大致上我知道。那个时候我听你三奶奶常 说，在小司家挑沟以后，一天一个人吃那个菜蛋蛋子，一天三啊也不知道几个，省点家 来给你这两个老奶奶吃，这是你三奶奶办的事。咱说到这个时候啊，她那时在抬抬筐， 一天吃两，剩下的给你两个老奶奶吃，送家来，在家里的都吃那些榆叶子吃，这么个事 啊。那个时候紧张啊，那就不能说了，咱这么说的话也不太好似的，真要是详细事的话， 从 61 年往外我就老么知道了，59 年、60 年我正在博山了，在那也是生活紧张，家里 真挨饿的时候我摸不清楚，我记得大体上就是这么个事，反正咱村里那一春五六十口也 多啊。
李: 死的，一天抬出两的也有，好几个，就是德全他二哥和金田他爹是一天死的，死的是个 怎么程度呢。抬得死的是啥个情况呢，俺大奶奶是个白样棺材，没有人抬啊，使牛车拉 到西洼地，那个时候谁能抬啊，生活紧张都是挨饿的死的，这是最难得时候就那个时候。 到这以后就行了，就不挨饿了。不挨饿反正也是吃地瓜面。 到以后不挨饿的时候才一天“八大粮”啊，一天“八大粮”老百姓够啥的，你想想一天 “八 大粮”还不够一碗粮食，按生灵(牲畜)来说那时候才吃多少啊，那时候不是吃的买的 青菜啊，而是在地里采的青菜啊，它上哪里好的，它不是越来越不行吗?那时候生活部 紧张，人能生生饿死吗，是吧，对现在来说是没有事，在以前是没有说这个事的，不是 形势有关吗?和毛主席以前的那个形势有关，没有说这个事的。
李: 你咋说啊，都经过的事，挨饿都是普遍性的，好比现在吃馍馍都一样，都普遍性的你咋 说啊，你说说一个不够，不够吃的，也不这么个事吗? 过去 60 年、61 年、62 年过去 这几年就不碍事了，随后八大粮了，也不碍事了。
李: 对了，它多少不说见个粮食仁啊，我说的不知道是四十天还是六十天，一个粮食仁也不 见啊，那个时候吃个地瓜干就是粮食仁，连个地瓜干的皮也捞不着啊，吃野菜为主啊， 老些花上钱买那个棉花种的，买着还算好的，还有买不着买树皮的，生活紧张到什么时 候呢?枕头里面的庶子皮都倒蹬出来吃这个啊， 还有棒子瓤，棒子瓤搁在碾上压，压 上你琢磨琢磨这个事，它咋办了呢?不吃不饿的慌吗? 要是这么说的话，老些不相信 这个事，要是经历的话就知道这个事。
李: 树皮树叶，榆树皮弄来晒干压成面子，摊上这个当粮食啊，这个我吃来，像这个 60 靠 上的他都吃来，都经着这个艰苦来，他都知道这个，吃树皮、采榆叶、采槐叶，实际上 说榆树叶和槐树叶这算是好树叶子，这个都吃过，现在榆叶再好俺也不吃，等个几天那 个榆钱，咋不采来咋不吃啊，基本上吃够了，吃这个东西伤脑筋了。还有那个地瓜叶， 我和你说说这个最艰苦的时候，在小桑那挑那个沟，挑那个东西沟，就是史联审投资的 那个楼啊，垫的那个沟，挑那个沟的时候，就是在哪里呢?在谁那个地方，在这个书明 家那个地方，那是咱全村的一个场院啊，咱社的那个场院啊，那个时候农业社吧，晒得 那个地瓜蔓，打下地瓜来不是地瓜蔓吗?才上来拿着像鸡抛狗倒，没人管的啊，到挨饿 的时候扒拉出来那些地瓜蔓来，地瓜叶来掏吧掏吧(洗洗)往沟上送啊，那时候吃那个 啊。那个地瓜蔓晒干的压压，做成面子，使那个还当成好东西了，这还是比较好的时候 呢。还有不好的时候吃食堂，食堂里啥也没有啊，连个粮食仁也没有啊，啥也没有啊。 到这么以后食堂散的，散了食堂以后，个人家去哪里拿锅的啊，58 年锅都拿到大炼钢 铁的了，瓶瓶罐罐都拣去，只是铁的都拣去，都砸吧炼铁，铁炼铁在这个博山来说，是 石头炼铁，在咱这炼铁呢是铁炼铁，把锅砸烂里，搁上火头炼铁，比起来说，咱是这样 炼铁啊，光砸锅吗?啥东西不咋啊那个时候，长恩使洗脸盆烧火使了好几年啊，使那个 钢盆啊，到以后不吃食堂的，没有锅就得先买吧，先买锅的话还得抽出来啊，什么东西 就是按计划的。
家里啥东西也没有了，58 年那个时候在地里干活，地里吃，地里住，家里就是空空的， 没啥吃，屋扒着卖，烧基本上没啥烧，家里根本啥也没有，啥家里用的都没有了，种地 的农具都交了共，你说那时候又不和现在一样，那时候有啥?有啥东西都闹了，都闹穷 了，闹穷了以后，有了责任田了以后慢慢才翻过来，再说来，以前很多人职位高的人遭 在 58 年、60 年、61 年，58 年的上半年没事，自从过了头八月节，头八月十五，我想 着啥呢，头八月节， 7 月小桑成立了检查团，俺是八月十二，也不知道是十三，上的 博山，从那个时候就大梁钢铁，从 58 年的闹到 59 年的秋后，那个时候啥也没有管的， 打机井的看哪里的水好，就去哪里吃啊，地里吃，地里住。58 年吃食堂爱去哪里吃就 去哪里吃，哪里都吃上饭的，就这么个事啊，就像咱村里，可以去李家吃，食堂照样给 送饭，那个时候到这么个程度。好嘛东西都糟蹋了嘛，都闹穷了。山东省省委书记，叫 什么名字来，当时也想不起来了，那时候都是普遍性的。
Interviewee: Li Yutian (Female, b. 1940, Zoujia Village, Shangdian Town, Binzhou City, Shandong Province)
Interviewer: Zou Xueping (Female, b. 1985, Caochangdi Workstation)
Interview Date: February 22, 2010
Interview Site: Home of Li Yutian
Interview Length: 29 minutes
In the original Transcripts, the interviewer is referred to as Ping, and the interviewee as Li.
Ping: Third grandpa, you can just talk about your experiences during the starvation.
Li: When living supplies were tight?
Ping: Yes, when people starved.
Li: The tight living supplies were no longer an issue in 1962, but just around 1960. 1960, 1959, 1958, we worked in military units and blasted backyard furnace. After that supplies were tight in the spring of 1960, and it got slightly better in 1961. Not to mention casualties, many people died at that time. In 1962 things slowly got better, didn’t collectivization gradually grow? Then it got better.
Ping: Can you talk about the circumstances here when people starved here?
Li: During the starvation the key was the “Five Winds” Campaign.
Ping: “Five Winds”?
Li: What was the “Five Wind” Campaign about? Why was China the first one to starve? It could be a rumor, I’m not sure. People said that China and Soviet Union were friends before, but later the chairman and Soviet Union fell out and borrowed foreign debt. Supplies became short after that, and grains were saved in order to return foreign debt. It was actually a slogan from the higher-ups. Severe starvation really happened in our Shandong, and our county was the most severe in Shangdong, and the few villages around here were the most severe in our county. Many people starved to death, at least several dozen in our village. At that time two were carried out in one day, two corpses. Later when the “Five Winds” Campaign stopped and supplies were no longer short, we didn’t have grains for forty or fifty days. Then we ate at the mass hall, and only began to see some grains after that. It didn’t get better until after 1961.
Ping: What year was the worst as for starvation?
Li: 1961. It was fine already in 1962, almost not eating radish and swill any more. But you couldn’t even buy those things in 1960, everyone was starving, who would sell them?
Ping: What did you eat then?
Li: Oh, eating tree bark, picking clovers in the field. When we picked clovers, your grandpa was chief of the Commune in our village. There were more than ten mu of clovers in the Northwest, and people went to pick them everyday, picking the clovers home for sustaining their lives. That was the spring of 1960, picking clovers in the field, picking wild herbs, and just kept living like that. Some bought sweet potato leaves with money, it was good to be able to buy, but many others couldn’t. Who owned any property then? They wouldn’t sell even if they had it. Those who really had nothing to eat would sell something. In 1960 the famine was awful, many people really starved to death. Especially our village, Old Guanwang and Qiujia Village, it was the most severe in these three villages. At that time Zou Peihuan worked here, and your grandpa asked him to go get food in Damewang, but he didn’t. He only went there after staying here for two days, and then everything was gone. Many people starved to death like this.
Ping: Didn’t we have farms in our village, did people farm?
Li: Farm? At that time there was work allotted to individuals without fixed output for each household. After getting grains, 12 villages worked as one team, and we were in Team Damewang. Everyone in the team just “lay it on the ground”，what is “lay it on the ground”？It means that in your room, you dig out all the sweet potatoes and put them in the field. Grains were all wasted, the field was full of corns and cottons, so many and all wasted. Were we short of living supplies? In 1958 we constructed backyard furnace and followed the “Five Winds” Campaign, and the yield was good in 1958. At that time all pots in the village, no matter big or small, were collected for constructing backyard furnace, and later people ate in the field and lived in the field. In the daytime red flags fluttered in the wind, and at night thousands of red lights were lit. Actually the village folks were all worn down and suffered from cold, they did not work for most of the time. If people from the Commune came over at night, we would work for a while, and get back to playing after they left.
Later when we were no longer starving, the production team depended on the weather for food. We farmed corns and got two or three hundred jin per mu, five hundred at best. As for wheat there were over two hundred jin. Why were we short of supplies then and until when? The production team had small harvest, and then excluding the seeds, public grains and reserve grains, what is left would be available to eat. That is like deducting three hundred jin from a thousand, and then there is seven hundred jin left. Your production team would distribute the seven hundred jin, no matter if there are one hundred or two hundred people, according to the principle of “more pay for more work”. Seventy percent was given to the work force and the other thirty percent was distributed according to work point, and those without enough work point would be fined. That’s how it was at that time. The more work force the better, the more children the more difficult. My family had seven people and your third grandma was ill, so I took care of the five children. Without enough work point, you had to pay money, and also grains if money was not enough, so the living conditions got worse over time.
Later it was fine once farms were divided and each person farmed his own field. As a collective, every household suffered. Not only in our village, but it was all like that. If the working unit was good, people would eat a little better, and if the working unit was lacking, then life would be more difficult. Actually your team was better than mine then. Your big grandpa was the team leader, and the yield in the team was higher so that they ate better than us. On our side, your grandpa Yutang (Qingshui’s father) was similar to your big grandpa when he was the team leader. Later he got sick and quit, and people who followed him did not do a good job.
Ping: What were the circumstances in your family like during the starving time?
Li: In 1960 the starvation was the worst. Speaking of the details, I can’t really do that, why not? I was at Boshan then.
Ping: Oh, you were at Boshan.
Li: I was not home, but I knew about things that happened. In the spring of 1960, my grandma and my mother starved to death. I knew about that, they died in March. Your third grandma (Li’s wife) was home by herself, and I went out to work in 1958 for constructing backyard furnace. I’m not sure about the details, but only know of trenches and rivers. At that time I often heard from your third grandma that each person had one herb ball per day after working on the trench at Xiaosi, or maybe three per day, I’m not sure. Your third grandma saved some and brought back home for two old grandmas. Speaking of then, she carried baskets and ate two per day, giving the rest to your two old grandmas at home. People at home all ate the elm leaves. Supplies were short back then, that I can’t talk about it, it’s also not good to talk about it. For the details, I would know very well about things happened after 1961, but I was in Boshan in 1959 and 1960, where supplies were also short. I don’t know too much about the time when people really starved at home, but I just roughly remember these things. At least fifty or sixty people from our village in that spring, which is lot.
Ping: People who died?
Li: Two dead people were carried out each day, Dequan’s second brother and Jintian’s father died on the same day. My big grandma was put in a coffin but no one could carry it, and they used an ox cart for pulling it to Xiwadi. Who could carry it then? Living supplies were short and many people starved to death, and that was the most difficult time. It was all right afterwards, people no longer starved. At least we had sweet potato flour.
When we no longer starved, there was eight liang of grains per day. What was it enough for? It was less than one bowl of grains. We did not eat vegetables that we bought, but picked them from the field. How could it be better? Didn’t it get worse and worse? How would people starve to death if it was not short of supplies? No one spoke of it before, isn’t it because of the circumstances? It is to do with Chairman Mao’s circumstances and no one spoke of it.
Ping: Did people not dare to talk about it?
Li: How do you talk about it? People all experienced it, and the starvation was commonplace, just like how we all eat buns now. How to you talk about it when it’s commonplace? You say there’s not enough to eat, isn’t that how it is? 1960, 1961 and 1962, when these years had passed things would get better. Later there were eight liang of grains, and it did not matter any more.
Ping: There were things to eat, unlike before when there was nothing.
Li: Right, for forty or sixty days, we did not see one single piece of grain. At that time, there was not even any dried sweet potato skin. We mainly ate wild herbs and bought cottonseed; it was good to be able to buy them. Sometimes there were only tree barks to buy. People even took buckwheat out from the pillows and grinded it to eat. Just think about it, what can you do? Wouldn’t you starve without eating that? Some people don’t believe it, but you’d know if you have experienced it.
Ping: Did you eat tree bark?
Li: Tree bark and tree leaves, elm leaves were picked, dried and grinded to eat. People over 60 have all experienced this and endured such difficulty and bitterness. Eating tree bark, picking elm leaves and locust leaves. In fact, elm leaves and locust leaves could be considered good leaves, we have all had it, but now I will never eat elm leaves no matter how good they are. And sweet potato leaves. Let me tell you about the most difficult time when we worked on the trench at Xiaosang, which was invested by Shi Lianshen. Where is it? It’s over the place at Shuming’s home, that’s the only yard in the whole village, the yard of our Commune. At that time the Agricultural Commune dried sweet potato vines, weren’t there sweet potato vines after getting the sweet potatoes? No one was watching over and we got the sweet potato vines and leaves when starving, washed and brought them to the trench. The sweet potato vines were dried, grinded and made into flour, and that was relatively good. During worse times we ate at the mass hall, and there was nothing, not even one piece of grain, nothing. After the mass hall was dismissed, where could each household get pots? In 1958 all pots were already taken for constructing backyard furnace, everything was taken as long as it’s made of iron. Pots were smashed and placed over fire, we constructed furnace like that. Did we only smash pots? Nothing was not smashed then. Chang’en cooked with wash basin for years, that steel basin. Later when no longer eating at the mass hall, people had to buy pots.
(Grandma Jintian came to get something, omitted here)
There was nothing left at home. In 1958, people worked, ate and lived in the field, and houses were empty with nothing to eat, and farming tools were also given to the Commune. It was different from now, what did we have then? Anything we had was made into a mess. It only slowly got better after the allotment of responsibility farmland. Many people with high positions suffered in 1958, 1960 and 1961, and not before the early half of 1958. In July inspection team was established in Xiaosang. I went to Boshan on August 12th or 13th, and constructed backyard furnace since then, and it lasted until the fall of 1959. There was no one in charge, we just moved to wherever we could find good water, and then ate and lived there. In 1958 at the mass hall, we ate wherever we liked. In our village, we could go to Li’s family and still get the same food from the mass hall. Things were all made into a mess and we got poor. The provincial Party secretary of Shangdong, what was his name? I can’t remember. It was widespread then.