草场地邮件组2018—16（1月22日：回村采访·被访人：马大贵；采访人：章梦奇）
被访人：马大贵（男，1934年出生，湖北省随州市殷店镇钓鱼台村村民）
采访人：章梦奇（女，1987年出生，纪录片作者）
采访主题：“土改”、“三年饥荒”
采访时间：2012年1月14日
采访地点：钓鱼台村，马大贵家中
采访抄录：2018年1月19日
采访笔记
我采访马大贵是2012年的冬天，我第一次到马家湾。他的院子很特别，院门是曾经马家湾仓库的废墟，断裂的墙面上遗留着血红色字迹和五星图案。穿过这些废墟墙体我有种穿过公元前古遗迹的错觉。
马大贵是个单身汉，村里人对“单身汉”颇有微词，潜藏着另一个意思是“没本事的人”。见到他的时候他正在院子里锄地，快80岁的人，握锄头的力道不像是个没本事的人。
采访依然是从逝者信息的统计开始，同为马姓，但马大贵对那些逝去的马家人的记忆却不那么清晰，口气中透出凉意。马大贵的命运故事与那些记忆模糊的马氏兄弟不同，他的生活从土改开始有了转折。他现在居住的院子是土改时分得的前地主的家，他反复强调，这个房子刚分给他的时候不是现在这样的，墙面是他返修过，原先只有两间屋，后来他又买下旁边三间。我问起前屋主的去向，他回答：“把他弄到其他房子去住到。现在没得人了。人完了。”
饥饿时期他的记忆聚焦在院前的臭椿树，他说这是他吃过的最难吃的东西，并反复强调当时“国家有困难”。去理解这样一个童年无屋可宿之人，在土改时成为翻身农奴分得两间房屋，就不难理解他怀有渡“国家之难”用椿叶添肚的牺牲之心了。
这种牺牲在文革期间保持了持续的效用，他被认命为副队长。从一个放牛娃到副队长，证明了马大贵并不是“没本事”之人。
采访原文抄录
（马大贵搬椅子）
章：你就看着我这个讲，我问你，你讲。爷爷，你叫么名字？
马：我？
章：嗯。
马：马大贵。
章：马大贵？
马：哦。
章：哪个贵？富贵的贵？
马：对子（联）高头有，我看看对子（联）高头。
章：对子（联）高头有？
马：那，那个灶门口。那角上一个。
章：贵，富贵的贵。
马：哦，富贵的贵，那角上那个。
章：你几几年出生的？
马：那我自己我就嚷（说）不清。
章：自己嚷不清？你今年几大？
马：78了
章：78？
马：哦。
章：我就是想回来采访一下像你们这么大的老人，那59年、61年那个时候。粮食过渡的时候，那时候的故事。你自己个人的故事。
马：那啊？可能下，那我就是没饿死的。那我一个，那是没饿死的。那娃子呢，将才说的娃子（养子）呢，他还没回来（过继），他挨到母亲的。那椿子头我都吃过，臭椿。那戳水一漂（煮），那最造孽了。
章：那个时候你在搞么斯？
马：我还不在这儿湾里嘛，还是在农村，种田嘛。
章：你认不认识那个叫马正义，你知不知道？
马：哦，马正义。
章：他是怎么饿死的？
马：他那时候也是59年，可能下，他呢没得门，是叫饿死的。
章：是怎么样？
马：那街上杀猪的还有他一个幺儿子，那时候几岁。他两个儿子嘛，这个死了，前年死的。是前年死的，去年三年半。
章：他是怎么饿死的，你知不知道？
马：没得粮食嘛。
章：在家里？
马：哦，对。饿死很有几个人。
章：还有啥个？
马：粮食来紧了，咵得下，那就是国家有困难，国家有困难粮食就过渡嘛。
章：那你还记不记得别的人，有谁是饿死的？
马：我们屋里那个时间就是他。我一个，那个吃粮食把，就不中，那一天就那么一点点。
章：一点有几多？
马：一天喝不到一斤粮食，几两，中么用呢？一个劳力一天辛苦做一下，也不跟现在一样，这个粮食宽敞，国家不那个。那个时间国家有困难，粮食肯定紧些。
章：那时候国家有么困难？
马：那国家嘛，那时候粮食收入还小，收得，那现在一亩田一千多斤，那时候一亩田几百斤，那时候就是的。现在总算翻上两翻了。
章：你记不记得那个马大柱。
马：啊？
章：马大柱。
马：马大柱我记得啊。他也是饿死的。这隔壁，他的大伯嘛，马明的。
章：他是怎么饿死的？
马：还有一个马泰山，他爷儿两个，这是一个屋里爷儿两个。
章：都饿死了？
马：都饿死了。
章：都是59年？
马：是的，不错。
章：他叫嘛？马泰山？
马：马泰山是个街号（外号），大号我忘记了。你看马光学晓不晓得。
章：他是在屋里饿死的还是在外头饿死的？
马：大柱是？反正是在这跟塌（附近）。他不是在蛮远（死的）。路上吧，那还在修公路。
章：他去修公路啊？
马：修公路那就没得门了，饿得皮片倒。
章：那个马大柱是几几年出生你知道不？
马：我找不到。
章：属么事？
马：我又找不到。
章：找不到？那他爸爸呢？马泰山。
马：马泰山他大些噻，那我又更找不到了。问马光学晓不晓得。光学。你大爷你晓不晓得？几时出生？
马光学：找不到。
马：大柱呢？
马光学：大柱我也找不到。
章：那个马泰山叫什么啊？
马光学：啊？
章：马泰山叫什么？
马光学：马泰山总是街号叫个马泰山，大号找不到叫么事。
马：大号找不到？
马光学：大号找不到。
马：那我们也找不到。
章：马家有没有家谱啊？
马：找不到，找不到孙娃子也找不到。孙娃子跟我们还小得多。
章：那你还记不记得，除了他们俩，还有啥个是饿死的？
马：那，你说记得，还有个马大军。在八队（老一队）住。
章：他也是那个时候饿死的？
马：哦，是的。不错。
章：马大军啊？
马：哦，大军。我一辈的。
章：军人的军？
马：我又找不到几时出生。
章：他是怎么饿死的？
马：他有，儿子还在八队嘛。
章：哦，他儿子叫么事。
马：儿子叫，光……他是光字牌的。猛然堵住了。
章：马光……
马：那个叫光嘛？光学！
马光学：啊？
马：岭上的。大军的儿子。
马光学：光军。
马：啊？光安那可不是的。
马光学：光海？
马：大军的。
马光学：啊？
马：大军的。
马光学：大军的噻？那有个光军光海。
马：是的，那个叫名安，我搞错了的。是叫光安。光字牌是的。
章：马光安？
马：哦，是的。
章：他住8队？他今年多大了？
马：他跟我小些。
章：马大军是原来在你们这儿住？
马：原来就在8队，在这儿住没得几大会儿，末了搬到8队的。
章：他是在屋里饿死的还是在外头饿死的？
马：回来死的吧，回来死的。
章：去哪里回来？
马：在这不远，修公路，不远，就在这跟塌。我跟他说：“走。”“走不了的。”（马大军回答）。那时候国家有困难。
章：那你记得还有啥？除了这几个，他们的名字。
马：这就不少了啊。
章：3个了。是吧？4个了。
马：嗯，4个，就不少了。那个时间，连米汤都喝不上嘴了。吃糠。我们差一点。12：54
章：怎么差一点？
马：就是说饿死嘛，将才说的。
（让大伯到旁边说话）
章：你吃的最难吃的东西是么事？
马：都是一样的嘛，那对面院子里就是椿树，那个断条的那个树。那就是个椿树，那是最难吃的。
章：椿树？
马：椿树。那边，是最难吃的。那就撑（填）肚子嘛。国家有困难嘛。
章：那时候你家只有一个人？
马：哦，将才他说的我那个侄子，我末了（后来）才弄（过继）过来。那时候就我一个。
章：你没结婚？那以后呢？那土改的时候你记不记得？
马：土改的时候，那时候就弟兄俩，老头也死的早，那是有病死的。那时候弟兄俩，土改的时候。
章：土改你们，土改以前你们是搞么事？有没有田？
马：土改，我们那时候就是最造孽的，跟人家常年放牛，那个时候。没土改之前跟人家放牛。自己也没得么事，家庭里，老的也死的早。
章：土改之后你分到么事？
马：没嚷么事。
章：什么都没分到？
马：分东西那就……有嘛？那小，年轻的小娃子。那也没得么事。没分么事，就是末了占了这个房子，就是这个房子。
章：就是现在这个房子。
马：哦。
章：这个房子就是那个时候的房子？
马：哦。
章：这以前是别人的还是？
马：以前是别人的。
章：土改之后就给你了？
马：嗯。
章：那以前这家人去哪里了？
马：这房子，这是我末了换的墙，这砖。这分的地主的。
章：那以前的这家的地主去哪里了？
马：就是这儿的嘛。
章：他们后来住在哪儿？
马：他，现在没得人了的。
章：没得人了？
马：哦。死了的。人没得了的，一个人没得了的。
章：地主一个人都没得了？
马：哦。没得了。
章：那个时候的地主全死了？
马：那个时候他人也少。那个时候他也没得哪个，也没得儿子。老了。
章：那你住在他的屋子，他住哪儿？
马：我们那个时候，土改的时候，他就没得人了。住其他的茬（地方）。掉下个把人住了其他的茬。原根等于说就是他的房子，掉下个把人，其他的，这个湾子还有其他的房子，把他弄到其他房子去住到。现在没得人了。人完了。
章：这房子是分给你的还是？
马：哦，分给我。
章：啥个分给你的？
马：土改的时候嘛，那分田也好，么事也好。这，我原根就是这个场，就是两间，末了买，人家走了，我又买了两间。原根弟兄两个三间房子。
章：那像那个。
马：这五间嘛，买了两间，那边灶屋还有一件呢。
章：都是买的。
马：那五间嘛。
章：那像那个文化大革命的时候的事情你记不记得。66年了。
马：哦，66年。不错，文化大革命66年。66年我就，没那个，没文化大革命我就住在这里头的。
章：那个时候你记不记得点么事故事？
马：文化大革命？文化大革命那，我们这个湾儿也没得么事，这个湾里。这就是，那个时间我当那个队长的，副队长。
章：你当副队长？是之前还是之后？
马：就是在文化大革命之前当了年把，到文化大革命后期。
章：那当队长是不是有人要讲你的话。
马：我们也没有那个，这人也不多，几十口人，七十口人。
章：有没有人批斗啊？
马：批斗我们这个场没得。没得。就是原来当队长的，在后来讲讲说说，其他的没有批斗么事。当队长嘛，总有那一说的。强调就说，没得说就那样票票清的，糊里糊涂的啊？那田地总是，种田嘛，总要说下大话噻，不能不说大话噻。你不管那一层，该说就要说。犁要搞啊，载啊，不能说坐在那儿糊糊涂涂的，那收得粮，收得住啊？你现在还不是啊，一家一户的还不是啊。抢到，到再栽的时候抢着栽，抢到那个……21：00种田没得说是，票票清的，那有的收入啊？没得收入噻。到任何时间种田，该抢到做的还是要抢着做，该吃苦的还要吃苦。你们这是约哪来的？
章：我是祖华的女儿。我就是来采访我这个村子老人。就把你们的故事记录下来。
马：哦，要你们费心。
章：没有没有，你想你们不讲这些故事，那后人没得人不知道了。
马：那是实，你说这句我有说，不，跟他们说苦也好，不熬得苦中苦，没得熬人上人。再几大的官，我说对不对？当几大的官，先苦后甜，没的说先甜后苦的。跟他们说，到任何社会，你这个种田一道，非种田不可。这个田总要人弄到翻篇。到任何社会，把那个土翻到这边翻到那边（23：15）光弄那个不种庄稼以后吃嘛？光那个（荒）到。我这说实打实的事。蒋介石也好，哪位政府领导，随那个领导，种田认祖，非种田不可。
章：你最喜欢哪个领导？
马：哼哼，不种田，光那个到，不收收入，那一部分人吃么斯啊，包括种田的人他吃嘛？个人吃嘛？吃不成。
章：那你觉得为么事那个时候，59年的时候你们这些种田的人没得吃，为么事?
马：那是国家有困难嘛，你不能说没得困难。那国家，你就是一家一户也有困难啊。国家没得困难？还是有困难。现在跟那（时）好，又大不同了嘛。
章：你还有没有么话想讲在这里面？
马：没得么事了嘛，就是这嘛，这个粮食，最主要的是粮食，国家也要的是粮食。那时候国家也是家大口阔，收入小嘛。不是跟现在一样，一亩田产千把金一千多斤，那时候几百斤。小几多，那个收入，小一倍。开头四五百斤那就叫可以的。一亩田产那么点粮食。这个场一千一二，那个场一千二三，这是翻（倍）。种子不同，关键，粮种。那不是现在收入大呢。那过去一斗田打单麦谷就是好收入，两百多，两三百斤，那就是那么一点点。现在一亩田，一斗田合六百多斤，一亩田就是一千多斤。
章：现在够吃是不？
马：是的啊。一千二三嘛。
章：现在够你吃嘛？
马：够了啊。国家有了。
章：那你觉得现在跟过去比？
马：一个天一个地。比啊，我将才说了嘛，一斗田单麦谷，一亩田一两麦斗就把四五百斤种回啊。
章：好，我下次回来把照片带给你。我给你拍照片，下次回来送给你。
马：好好好，这就要你们当那个的费心。
章：没有没有，是应该的。应该做的。
马：应该，反正这个是多多的费得不少心。蛮要脑筋。动脑筋，你们。我们老了，就是算了就是这了。
章：你年轻的时候最想搞么事啊？
马：年轻，就不由个人想。那就想不到的。
章：有没有么……愿望？
马：那就想不到的。那想你，搞个么事呢，没得人那个，那也办不到呢。
章：那有没有想过啊？想还是想了吧？
马：想是想得到，想就是没得任何头衔。
章：想么事啊？年轻的时候。
马：年轻，想到屋里队上搞点么事，那时候没得人。跟那个说望着头衔安排。这是不可能的。
章：你现在有么事愿望啊？
马：现在不中了，老了。跟那个说，当干部也好，早就退休了。现在80岁少两岁，想嘛？那就想不到，那就不能想了。按说当干部早就退休了。
章：你当了几年队长？
马：当了两三，四年。
章：当队长的时候生活怎么样？
马：那个到末了才叫好一点。
章：当队长的时候？
马：当队长的时间往后就叫好一点。特别那个59年。那个，那不中。当队长也不中。那五几年。那是有……
章：好，你冷，不打扰你了。看你好冷。
马：不冷我不冷。哦，我不冷。你有点凉快了。
章：我也有点冷。
马：嗯，你有点凉快。
章：你接着干活我走了。
马：好。
章：谢谢你。
马：要你费心。
章：下次我来把那个照片洗出来送给你。
马：好，叫你念叨心。
章：你干活我走了，再见。
马：好。
English Transcript
Zhang: Look at me while you talk. I will ask you questions. Grandpa, what’s your name?
Ma: Me?
Zhang: Yeah.
Ma: Ma Dagui.
Zhang: Ma Dagui?
Ma: Yes.
Zhang: Which “gui”? “Gui”in “fugui” (wealth)?
Ma: It’s in the couplet. Let me look at the couplet.
Zhang: It’s in the couplet?
Ma: There, at the stove door.
Zhang: “Gui”in “fugui” (wealth).
Ma: Oh, “gui”in “fugui” (wealth). The one in the corner.
Zhang: What year were you born in?
Ma: I can’t talk clearly on my own.
Zhang: Can’t talk clearly on my own? How old are you?
Ma: 78.
Zhang: 78？
Ma: Yeah.
Zhang: I am just coming back to interview the seniors at your age about the time from 1959 to 1961. The Transitional Period of Grains. The stories during that time. Your personal stories.
Ma: That? Maybe it’s just that I didn’t starve to death. I was one of those who didn’t die of hunger. I hadn’t adopted the kid that I just talked about. He was with his mother. I even ate the stalks of chouchun. We boiled chouchun, which was really bad.
Zhang: What were you doing at that moment?
Ma: I wasn’t here yet. I was in the countryside, farming.
Zhang: Do you know a guy named Ma Zhengyi? Do you know him?
Ma: Yeah, Ma Zhengyi.
Zhang: How did he die of hunger?
Ma: It was in 1959. He didn’t have ways. He died of hunger.
Zhang: How did that happen?
Ma: His youngest son is a butcher on the street. He was only a few years old then. He had two sons. One died the year before last year. It’s been three and a half years.
Zhang: Do you know how he died of hunger?
Ma: There was no grains.
Zhang: At home?
Ma: Oh, yeah. Many died of hunger.
Zhang: Who else?
Ma: Grains were scarce. I could only say that country was in trouble, so we had the Transitional Period.
Zhang: Do you remember anyone else that died of hunger?
Ma: Only him in our family at that time. I was okay but he wasn’t. There was only a little food every day.
Zhang: How many grains did you have per day?
Ma: Less than one jin per day. Several liang. How could that be enough? One labored hard for a day, but it was not like today. We have plenty of grains now. Our country was having troubles, so the food was scarce.
Zhang: What trouble did the country have?
Ma: The country…the yield of grains was small. Now we have over a thousand jin per acre. Back then only several hundred jin per acre. Now the amount has tripled.
Zhang: Do you remember that Ma Dazhu?
Ma: What?
Zhang: Ma Dazhu.
Ma: I remember Ma Dazhu. He was also starved to death. He was the uncle of Ma Ming, who lives next door.
Zhang: How did he die of hunger?
Ma: There was also a Ma Taishan. They were father and son. Father and son in the house.
Zhang: They both died?
Ma: Both died of hunger?
Zhang: Both in 1959?
Ma: Yes. Correct.
Zhang: What was his name? Ma Taishan?
Ma: Ma Taishan was a nickname. I don’t remember his real name. You can see if Ma Guangxue knows it.
Zhang: Was he starved to death in the house or outside?
Ma: Dazhu? It was definitely nearby. He didn’t die far away from here. On the road, probably. They were building roads.
Zhang: He went to build roads.
Ma: People had no ways when building roads. They were starved to skins and bones.
Zhang: Do you know what year Ma Dazhu was born in?
Ma: I don’t know.
Zhang: What was his zodiac animal?
Ma: I don’t know that either.
Zhang: You don’t know? How about his father? Ma Taishan.
Ma: Ma Taishan was older and it is even less likely for me to know. Ask Guang xue if he knows. Guangxue, do you know your uncle? When was he born?
Ma Guangxue: I don’t know.
Ma: How about Dazhu?
Ma Guangxue: I don’t know about Dazhu either.
Zhang: What was Ma Taishan’s name?
Ma Guangxue: What?
Zhang: What was Ma Taishan’s name?
Ma Guangxue: He was known as Ma Taishan. I don’t know what his real name was.
Ma: You don’t know his real name?
Ma Guangxue: I don’t know his real name.
Ma: We don’t know too.
Zhang: Is there a family tree for the Ma’s.
Ma: No. Don’t know the later generations too. They are much younger than us.
Zhang: Do you remember, other than these two, anyone who died of hunger?
Ma: There was also a Ma Dazhu. He lived in Team Eight (previously Team One).
Zhang: He also died of hunger at that time?
Ma: Oh, yeah. Right.
Zhang: Ma Dajun？
Ma: Yeah, Dazhun. One of my generation’s people.
Zhang: “Jun” as in “junren” (army)?
Ma: I don’t know when he was born either.
Zhang: How did he die of hunger?
Ma: His son is still in Team Eight.
Zhang: Oh. What’s his son called?
Ma: His son is named Guang…he’s in the Guang generation. I suddenly forgot his name.
Zhang: Ma Guang…
Ma: Is he named Guang? Guangxue!
Ma Guangxue: Yes?
Ma: On the hills. Dajun’s son.
Ma Guangxue: Guangjun.
Ma: What? Not Guangan.
Ma Guangxue: Guanghai?
Ma: Dajun’s son.
Ma Guangxue: What?
Ma: Dajun’s son.
Ma Guangxue: Dajun’s son? There is a Guangjun and a Guanghai.
Ma: Yes, that one is An. I got it wrong. His name is Guangan. The Guang generation.
Zhang: Ma Guangan?
Ma: Yes.
Zhang: He’s living in Team Eight? How old is him?
Ma: He’s younger than me.
Zhang: Ma Dajun used to live here?
Ma: He was originally in Team Eight. He lived here a while and then moved to Team Eight.
Zhang: Did he die of hunger inside the house or outside?
Ma: He died on his way back.
Zhang: Where was he coming back from?
Ma: Not far from here. Building roads not far from here. Right in this area. I said, “Let’s go.” “I can’t.” He said. The country was in trouble.
Zhang: Do you remember anything else? Apart from these people. And their names.
Ma: I already said quite a few.
Zhang: You told me about three people. Right? Four people.
Ma: Yes, four people. Already quite a few. We couldn’t drink rice soup. We ate brans. We were not doing well.
Zhang: How not well?
Ma: Just dying of hunger, like what I just said.
Zhang: What was the worst thing that you ate.
Ma: They were all the same. There is a chouchun in the yard across us. That tree with the broken trunk is chouchun. That was the worst food.
Zhang: Chouchun?
Ma: Chouchun. There, it tasted the worst. It was just to fill the stomach. The country was in trouble.
Zhang: You were just living by yourself?
Ma: Yes. The nephew of mine that he mentioned. I didn’t adopt him till later. I was just by myself then.
Zhang: You’ve never married? How about afterwards. Do you remember the Land Reform?
Ma: During the Land Reform, I was with my brother. Our father had died early. He had been sick. We two brothers, during the Land Reform.
Zhang: What were you doing before the Land Reform? Did you have land?
Ma: During the Land Reform, we suffered the most. We were pasturing cow following someone. We pastured cow before the Land Reform. We weren’t capable and our father had died early.
Zhang: Did you get something after the Land Reform?
Ma: Nothing.
Zhang: You didn’t get anything?
Ma: The distribution was…what was there? I was just a little child. Didn’t get anything. Later I got this house. Just this house.
Zhang: Just this house.
Ma: Yes
Zhang: This house was from that time?
Ma: Yes.
Zhang: Did it belong to someone else?
Ma: It belonged to someone else.
Zhang: It was given to you after the Land Reform?
Ma: Yes.
Zhang: Where did the previous residents go?
Ma: I rebuilt the walls of this house…the bricks. It was from a landlord.
Zhang: Where did the landlord family go?
Ma: Right here.
Zhang: Where did they live then?
Ma: There’s no one now.
Zhang: No one?
Ma: Yeah. They died. There is no one left.
Zhang: No landlord is left?
Ma: Yeah. All gone.
Zhang: Did they all die at that time?
Ma: They didn’t have a lot of people then. He didn’t have anyone. Didn’t have a son. He got old.
Zhang: Where did he live when you lived in his house?
Ma: At the time of the Land Reform, he was already gone. He lived somewhere else. One or two people left in the family lived somewhere else. It was his house. They had one or two people left. They moved to other houses in this bay. Now there is no one left.
Zhang: Was this house handed out to you?
Ma: Yes. Handed out to me.
Zhang: Why?
Ma: It was the Land Reform. People got lands or something. I was originally from this place and had two houses. I bought two houses after they were gone. Originally, we two brothers had three houses.
Zhang: Like that one.
Ma: Those five. Bought two. There’s another one near the kitchen.
Zhang: You bought all of them.
Ma: Yeah, those five.
Zhang: Do you remember the things during the Cultural Revolution? 1966.
Ma: Yeah, 1966. Right. The Cultural Revolution in 1966. In 1966, I started living in this house before the Cultural Revolution.
Zhang: Do you remember any stories from that time?
Ma: The Cultural Revolution? During the Cultural Revolution, nothing happened in our bay. I was the team leader then. Deputy team leader.
Zhang: You were the deputy team leader? Before or after the Cultural Revolution?
Ma: A few years before the Cultural Revolution to later in the Cultural Revolution.
Zhang: Did people say things about you because you were the team leader?
Ma: We didn’t have that stuff. There weren’t many people here. Several tens of people. Seventy people.
Zhang: Did anyone criticize anyone?
Ma: Not here, no. I was the team leader and there were some people saying things, but no criticisms. Things were like that when you were a team leader. Importantly, things were always jumbled. I had to brag a little when it comes to farming. How could I not brag? I couldn’t care that much. We needed ploughing and planting. How could we collect the grains otherwise? Things stay the same now. Families needed to compete to farm…if you were completely honest, how could there be income? No income. At any time, we still need to compete to work and endure enough bitterness. Where are you coming from?
Zhang: I am Zuhua’s daughter. I’m coming to interview the seniors in the village. I am documenting your stories.
Ma: Oh, sorry for bothering you.
Zhang: No, no. It’s just that if you don’t tell these stories, people after you will not be able to know them.
Ma: That’s true. It’s good to tell them about our sufferings. If you don’t endure the worst, you can’t be the best. No matter how high your position is, right? Even you are a high position official, you need to taste bitter before sweet. There’s no such thing as to taste sweet before bitter. You should tell them that, no matter what society they are in, you have to farm as a farmer. Fields need people to plough. In any society, you need to turn the soil over here and there. If you don’t grow crops, what can you eat in future? Fields will be wasted. I am saying the truth. Jiang Jieshi or any other leader, when you follow that leader, you have to grow crops.
Zhang: Which leader is your favorite?
Ma: If we don’t grow crops and only do that, we won’t have incomes. How can some people, including the farmers, eat? What can anyone eat? Nothing.
Zhang: Why do you think farmers like you didn’t have food in 1959?
Ma: That was because the country was in trouble. You couldn’t say there was no trouble. The country…every family has problems too. The country didn’t have problems? It did. Today is very different from that period.
Zhang: Do you have anything else to say here?
Ma: Nothing. It was just mainly about grains. The country wanted grains too. The country had a lot of families and a lot of mouths to feed, yet the income was low. Its’ not like now—an acre yields thousands…over a thousand jin. It only yielded several hundred jin. The income was much smaller, only half of the present. At first, four or five hundred jin were a fair amount. That many grains per an acre of land. This place produces one thousand and one or two hundred and that place one thousand and two or three hundred. This is double the amount. The seeds are different. The key is the seeds. That’s why we have a bigger income now. One load of wheat per one dou of land was considered good harvest. In the past, it was good harvest when one dou of the field yielded over two hundred, two or three hundred jin. Such little amount. Now one acre…one dou yields over six hundred jin. One acre means over a thousand jin.
Zhang: People have enough to eat now?
Ma: Yes. One thousand and two or three hundred.
Zhang: Do you have enough to eat now?
Ma: Yes. The country has stuff now.
Zhang: How do you compare the present to the past?
Ma: Heaven to earth. For example, like I just said, one load of wheat per one dou of land (in the past). One acre of the land produces four to five hundred jin now.
Zhang: Okay, I will give you the photos next time I come back. I’ve taken some pictures of you, and I will give them to you next time I come back.
Ma: Okay, okay. Sorry for bothering you guys.
Zhang: No, no. It’s what I do. I should do it.
Ma: It’s a lot of work. It needs you to think. Think. We are old and we can’t do it anymore.
Zhang: What did you want to do the most when you were young?
Ma: Individuals couldn’t think for themselves when I was young. Couldn’t think of things.
Zhang: Did you have some…wishes?
Ma: I cannot think of any. What could I do? I couldn’t manage anything without others’ help.
Zhang: So, did you think about it then? You thought about it, right?
Ma: Yeah, but I didn’t get any titles.
Zhang: What did you think of? When you were young.
Ma: When I was young, I wanted to do something in the team. Didn’t have anyone to turn to. It was impossible to ask for a title.
Zhang: Do you have any wishes now?
Ma: Now I am too old. Even if I were a cadre, I would have retired long ago. I’m two years from 80 years old. What can I think of? I can’t think of anything. If I were a cadre, I would have retired long ago.
Zhang: How many years did you work as the team leader?
Ma: Two or three, four years.
Zhang: How was life as the team leader?
Ma: It got a little better in the end.
Zhang: When you were the team leader?
Ma: Later on, when I was the team leader. Especially the 1959. That was not okay. The 1950s…There was…
Zhang: Okay. You are cold. I will stop bothering you. You look very cold.
Ma: I’m not cold. I’m not cold. You are a little cold.
Zhang: I’m a little cold too.
Ma: Yeah, you are a little cold.
Zhang: You can continue your work then. I’m leaving.
Ma: Okay.
Zhang: Thank you.
Ma: Sorry for bothering you.
Zhang: I will give you the photos next time.
Ma: Okay. Thank you.
Zhang: You can work now. I’m going. Goodbye.
Ma: Okay.
