原文抄录
口述人：荣树堂（男，1920年出生，北京市顺义区杨镇沙子营村村民）
采访人：邵玉珍（女，1950年出生，北京市顺义区杨镇沙子营村村民）
采访时间：2011年2月
采访地点：沙子营村，荣树堂家
荣：哪年出生的？1920年8月11号。什么时候教的书？1942年7月1号。土改1947年，土地法大纲是1948年。
邵：土地法大纲是什么内容啊？
荣：土地法大纲就是，平分土地，废除旧债。平均每人一份，不论什么人。小店那边搬出去的都给留地了，咱们这儿没给人留地。
邵：那咱们村原来多少亩地啊？
荣：原来是58顷多地，现在没剩多少，有20多顷地了不得了，全给人家了。
邵：58顷是多少亩啊？
荣：5800亩。
邵：那那阵人口是多少啊？
荣：人口是800多口人。
邵：那一人合着七亩多地。
荣：后来一人合三亩地，后来王士华（音）当书记，大树场那儿蒙家坟的地又给人家小店了，换了咱们北边这儿（的一些地）。好几百亩地换了那么点儿，兔子不拉粪的地儿，长的小树就这么点。李春生（音）当书记，泄水沟北边的地儿又给张家府了。
邵：泄水沟北边的地原来是咱们村的呀？
荣：对，给人家了。地都给人家了，只剩下17顷地了。
邵：17顷地还有1700亩。
荣：咱们庄过去没有地，就我们这儿有地。
邵：过去，您说的过去是啥时候？
荣：这可是一百多年了，我听老农一个老头子说的。
邵：那您说的咱们村这地5800多亩，实际上就是往南往北多。西边多吧？
荣：西边多。
邵：西边河上多是吧？
荣：现在还剩20多顷地。一人合三亩地。（那阵我们村的人）没有知识，小店那边人家鬼，说：“我们庄谁谁谁，搬出去多少年去了。”平分土地的时候就回来跟你要地。说不给他们留，结果把地就弄没了。
邵：把地给弄没啦？
荣：嗯。
邵：那您说那阵土改是47年。
荣：47年就扫房了。
邵：扫房是不是那阵就开始定成分了？
荣：那阵还没开始定成分呢。
邵：那咋叫扫房？
荣：说扫谁家就扫谁家啦。
邵：扫房是啥意思？
荣：斗争，扫地出门，把房都给分了。
邵：分给啥啦？
荣：贫下中农了。
邵：那阵就已经定成分了吧？
荣：那阵没定成分呢，后来定的。
邵：那您说的扫房扫的是谁？
荣：头一回扫房扫了二十多家。21家。
邵：基本上21家都是谁家？
荣：这头有荣中玉（音），我们这儿，满堂他们那儿，树新（音）他们也给扫了。老刘家，老吴家，张富勇（音），张翔（音），张瑞（音）他们家，吴广（音）他们家，张辅员（音），张富（音）他们家，久松（音）他们家……都给扫了。张明阳（音）没儿子，也给扫了。久奎（音）……也扫了。你们家那老房，原来就是久奎他们家的。……
邵：那您说当时扫房，是以啥为标准呢？
荣：没有什么标准，说“谁谁谁得扫，”那就去扫了。
邵：谁说这句话的呀？
荣：有个吴英（音），他爸爸说的，他那阵穷着呢。
邵：他是贫雇农，他说谁有钱，就让谁搬家？
荣：对，“比我强，就搬家！”就那样。
邵：那就没有说贫富标准，这家地多，这家房子好，就给扫了？
荣：对的。让谁搬就谁搬去。
邵：搬到那家去，那家再搬进来？
荣：对的。
邵：那会儿像您多大岁数？
荣：我28，在爬上教书呢。
邵：那那阵扫了房，您心里咋想？你心里头愿意吗？
荣：不愿意也不成啊。说扫谁就扫谁了，说让谁搬就让谁搬了。顺才（音）他们家也给搬出去了，后来又给恢复了。
邵：那被扫房的这户就顺顺当当搬出去了？
荣：对啊，让你搬哪儿就搬哪儿去，不搬人家揍你。
邵：您这地方是不是后来批的盖的？
荣：不是后来批的，没批房的时候就在这儿盖房了。盖了10间。
邵：那这个扫房就叫土改，
荣：后来又有土地法大纲，又扫一回房。
邵：那是什么时候？这个扫房是47年，是吧？
荣：47年头上是扫房，后来又复查土地。谁家地多拿出来，后来又扫房，扫房后来土地方大纲又扫房。谁家地多呀就往外拿。
邵：你说这个土地法大纲是什么内容啊？
荣：就是平分土地，每人一份，废除旧债，谁欠谁的都给废除。
邵：土改是那么回事儿。那47年咱们这儿就算解放了。
荣：咱们这儿顺义还没解放呢，丰台还有据点呢。
邵：据点就是国民党的地方？
荣：对，就是国民党的军队。47年，48年还有呢，后来咱们这儿一成立中华人民共和国全跑了。杨庄有日本，小店有据点。
邵：您一直教书的来着？
荣：对，一直教书。
邵：教多少年书呀？
荣：教38年书。河北省派我的。我毕业后到处都有我的同学。（师范）学校管饭，学杂费都不要，就买书归自己，穿衣裳归自己。
邵：您是42年就教书？
荣：对，42年。
邵：42年那阵是不是日本？
荣：对，日本统治。这边不全都让日本给占了，半个中国都让日本给占了。杀中国人杀三千五百多万。南京那一个城市杀了三十多万，比赛，看谁杀的多。你看看，这日本那阵。
邵：那咱们这边那会儿日本杀人杀得厉害吗？
荣：咱们这边也杀了不少。那会儿有红眼军，一回杀了27个。
邵：啥是红眼军？
荣：他们明着是抗日，实际上就抢人家东西，后来管它叫红眼军了，其实就是红军。
邵：红军是那会儿长征那个红军吗？后来的八路军吗？
荣：对，八路军，把日本给杀了。郑子厚（音）是头，有800多口人。
邵：那您说的这个是共产党的正规军呀还是土匪？
荣：他们抢人东西，完了先叫红军，后来抢人东西，咱们这边儿给起名叫红眼军，拿人东西。
邵：拿老百姓的东西还是？
荣：就咱们当地的人，抢人东西，所以就叫红眼军了。咱们这儿好几个人都当过红眼军。全都是当地的人，去抢人家东西。
邵：拿谁的东西？
荣：老百姓的东西呗。
邵：那不就是土匪吗？
荣：跟土匪一样。
邵：那他打不打日本呢？
荣：打一回日本，后来投降日本了。
邵：投降日本谁杀的？
荣：投降日本是9月初二，1938年，我们一同学跟我说：“荣树堂，你们这边日本的，跟这警访队（伪军），全住东门了，全上爬上挑水去了，这人可多。”那回红眼军可多了。 乔山（音）给逮着的，日本给他逮着了，他想投降还怎么了，说不能逮他了，其实不是，日本贼心大，完了乔山给逮着了，他一个当家的孙女给他当卫兵，管他叫四爷，说：“四爷四爷不好，这人多了，抓上爬上了。”爬上打死十三个童子军。
邵：童子军？
荣：对，小孩，十几岁小孩当兵的。
邵：打死十三？
荣：对，打死十三。逮着了之后站成两大队，“你们还谁干？”“我干！”站一边，“我不干了！”站那边。不干的全回家了，说干的全给捆上了。好些人来瞧热闹呢，日本人就轰人走，结果炸到地雷了，全给打死里头了。后来里头有个人没死，结果被老百姓发现了：“你怎么还没死，”就给砸死了。
邵：那日本在这儿还办点好事？
荣：杨庄先是没日本，从开始闹红眼军之后杨庄就有日本了。日本也杀死人不少，一开大会大家都害怕。
邵：日本统治那阵咱们这儿也开大会？
荣：咱们这儿没开，上附近别处（具体地名不祥）开去了，咱们这儿都归那里管，西北角归顺义县管。
……（此处省去闲聊）
荣：那阵还没有共产党呢，1937年以后才来的。那阵好多地方，像爬上、沙岭、驻马庄等等，都有穷人会，晚上开秘密会，净拍巴掌，使暗号。我在爬上听到他们打哨，集合开会。
邵：那是不是就是共产党啊？
荣：差不多，没入共产党就有那种组织了。
邵：那您说那阵复查、扫房，这都是这群人干的吧？从穷人会里边发展的吧？
荣：对，从穷人会里发展的，都东边那些村。
邵：穷人会，不叫共产党？
荣：对，后来就叫共产党了。十点多钟以后就开始大哨，拍巴掌，开会。那阵也没人管，这里离管的县上70多里地呢，远。这边好些好远的地方都归一个县管。
邵：那您说复查以后成分是啥时候定的？
荣：48年定的，剥削率超过25%的就算富农。
邵：啥叫剥削？
荣：你这儿雇几个活儿，人种多少地，全算剥削，完了一平均，超过25%的就算地主、富农，不够的就算中农。
邵：那您说的这个地主啥意思？就是比富农地还多？财产还多？
荣：放债，你们家放多少债，你们家雇几个活儿，全算剥削。
邵：按那地的平均数？
荣：对。就是雇活、放债算剥削。
邵：那这完了就扫房了，土地也平分了。
荣：对。
另一次采访
荣：一运动就回来了。
邵：啥运动？文化大革命？
荣：反右，四清，文化大革命，这三项。我是四清时候回来的，回来又改政策，就那个什么了。
邵：四清那时候您回家啦？
荣：华国锋当国务院总理，他说：“我没那知识我当不了，你越没知识我越信任你，有知识我就不信。”那阵老革命全被打倒了，刘少奇、彭德怀、贺龙，这些个老元帅都给压下来了。
邵：那是文化大革命时候的事儿。
荣：对。彭德怀三个带子抽，抽了还不承认，说：“你反对毛主席。”他说，“我不对反对毛主席。”使着棍子捋，肋骨都打断了。贺龙找周总理保护他，周总理说：“我保护你。”周总理不出去干啥去了，这红卫兵给逮着了。完了周总理去打听，别人说：“不知道，来了几个红卫兵就给弄走了。”弄走了就不知弄哪儿去给打死了。后来周总理碰见贺龙他媳妇了，说：“嘿，我对不起他呀，让我保护我没保护好他。”后来开追悼大会的时候，别的官儿都给鞠仨躬，周总理给鞠七个。
邵：您四清那阵是因为什么问题下放的？
荣：思想落后。
邵：没给您戴帽子吗？
荣：没戴帽子。
邵：那就行。咋叫思想落后啊？
荣：就是当时认识不够，说错话了。
邵：那您那阵说啥了呀？
荣：大跃进那阵，吃食堂，一人给28斤，咱们老百姓14斤，分配的时候说您应该拿出点粮食给年轻的吃，我说：“28斤粮食我再拿出点来我能吃什么呀？”荆坨有一个书记，那村产21万斤粮食，叫拿18万斤粮食交公粮。他就说：“那我们社员吃啥呀？”就这么一句话，就弄小店劳动去了，又弄庄上批判。就这么一句话就给弄起来了。后来四清一进庄，后晌黑还听半导体呢，他儿子要关他说：“别关我还听呢”，听听的死了，据说给吓死了，怕不知道怎么整他。
邵：那合着四清就开始整人？
荣：对。
邵：那您说以前那阵学校里面右派（是怎么回事）？
荣：对，就反右那阵，57年。邓小平为啥三上三下呀？毛主席让他做反右的成绩、功劳，邓小平说“我不做”，不做你就下去吧。下去了，邓小平有一套啊，又给抽上来了。到了大跃进又让邓小平做成绩，他说“我不会做大跃进这成绩。”又给弄下来了。到后来又给抽上来了，回头让他做文化大革命的成绩，他说“我不会”，就这样三上三下。毛主席死了，华国锋跟李先念找叶剑英去了，说该动四人帮了。叶剑英说：“我打仗成，以后咋办我办不好。找邓小平去吧，找小个子去吧。”逮四人帮的时候分四个组，一拨逮江青，一拨逮张春桥，一拨逮王洪文，一拨逮姚文元，说什么时候逮就什么时候逮，都那时间动手。江青在那儿看文件呢，就进去了，说要逮捕她，一下就给逮住了。逮住以后四个人全弄到北京监狱里头来了。上海那书记姓马，他说这么容易就给逮着啦？
邵：吃食堂的时候当老师的也挺苦吧？
荣：十七大以后又开始当老师了，工资也涨了，也给副食品了，一个月给副食款，在乡村当老师的自己做饭的，一个月给两块钱的小灶费，给5块钱的副食品。
邵：落实政策以后您那阵还教书吗？您教几年书啊？
荣：一共教38年书。
邵：四清时候下放几年？
荣：下放13年。一共才教24年书，净搞运动了。
邵：搞运动的时候您受打击了吗？
荣：也受打击了。文化大革命的时候撅着了。
邵：那您因为啥毛病呀？给您定的啥罪呀？
荣：批的就是思想落后呀。那时候老教师都弄进去了，一溜一溜地栓进去，全是老教师。
邵：您说复查就是解放那会儿吧？
荣：刚复查那阵还没解放呢。46年、47年。那阵李福太（音）、杨宗善（音）都在爬上，全都弄公安局去了。我是46年走的，我走了派他们俩去的，我瞅着爬上那庄厉害，我说我赶紧调走吧不在那庄了。把他们都给揍苦了。
邵：那他们啥毛病啊？是谁干的这事儿？
荣：也不说你啥毛病，就说那是国民党。你承认，不承认打，就那样。
邵：这是共产党干的？
荣：嗯，共产党干的。
邵：那您说那复查，怎么叫复查？
荣：复查就是土地平分。
邵：那那阵不是没解放呐？
荣：没解放呢。
邵：没解放那阵就开始复查？
荣：咱们这儿48年以后解的放。土地平分是47年。打死多了。这老师给毙的，打死多了。
另一位老人：我40年生人，土地平分那阵都记事了，分地主东西去，分罐子。那阵那些学生，我去上学了，小孩子不敢，大孩子真是。地富家子女在小黑屋待着，想跟人家换裤腰带就换裤腰带，想换裤子就换裤子，人家穿的好他就换过来。完了上两边站着，我们家有大庙，（贫下中农的）学生就在那儿哗哗撸地富子女。
荣：好几处呢，杨庄有一个，焦各庄一处，张各庄有一处，竟整这个的。吃咸菜弄口粘痰“张开嘴”，就吐你嘴。就让您承认那是国民党。
邵：那是国民党吗？
荣：不是。双营有一个叫王作晨（音）的，王作晨无期徒刑，邓小平一上台给大赦了，那时候都写他，你也写他，我也写他，你不承认就揍你。往死打。河北村的许更久（音）到那就给揍死了，他说我没有，我在杜各庄教书，碰南彩大桥那，摁那就揍么，打完了好些大夫也全都给弄进去了。大夫一瞅不行了，打出血来倒不怕，这人给打黄了，中毒了。抬到南彩，半道就死了。后来一调查根本就没那事，就都不是了。
邵：这挨打的无辜的人可够多的吧？
荣：那老师打死多了，不承认就打，就揍。有点名的人全给弄去了，冤死的多了。
English Transcript
Interviewee: Rong Shutang (Male, b. 1920, villager of Shaziying Village, Beijing)
Interviewer: Shao Yuzhen (Female, b. 1950, villager of Shaziying Village, Beijing)
Interview date: February, 2011
Interview location: Rong Shutang’s home, Shaziying Village
Rong: In which year was I born? August 11, 1920. When did I start teaching? July 1, 1942. The Land Reform was in 1947, while the Outline of Land Law was exercised in 1948.
Shao: What was the content of the Outline of Land Law?
Rong: The Outline of Land Law aimed at evenly distributing the land and abolishing the old debts. Everyone got one share, no matter who they were. Those who moved out of their houses in Xiaodian had some of their own land left for them, but no one here was given any land.
Shao: How much land did our village have in the beginning?
Rong: Originally we had over 58 Qing of land, but not much left now. Now we have at most 20 Qing of land. The rest has all been given to others.
Shao: How much is 58 Qing?
Rong: 5800 Mu.
Shao: What was the population back then?
Rong: Over 800 people.
Shao: So everyone had over 7 Mu of land.
Rong: Later everyone had 3 Mu of land. When Wang Shihua was the secretary, the land belonging to Mengjiafen in Dashuchang was given to Xiaodian in exchange for some land in the north of our village. We exchanged several hundred Mu of land for only a small amount of land, where even the rabbits were unwilling to take a shit and where the trees could only grow this big. When Li Chunsheng was the secretary, the land to the north of Xieshuigou was given to Zhangjiafu.
Shao: The land to the north of Xieshuigou used to belong to our village?
Rong: Yes, it was given to others. Most land was given to others. Only 17 Qin of land was left.
Shao: 17 Qing means we still have 1700 Mu.
Rong: Our village didn’t have much land in the past. We only had some here.
Shao: When was the past you are referring to?
Rong: Over 100 years ago. I was told by an old farmer.
Shao: You said our village used to have over 5800 Mu of land, so we had more toward the south and north, right? We had more land in the west?
Rong: We had more land in the west.
Shao: More land in the west near the river?
Rong: Now we have over 20 Qing land left. Everyone has 3 Mu of field. (At that time people in our village) didn’t have enough knowledge. People from Xiaodian were very shrew. They said, “this person from our village moved out many years ago.” When distributing the land, they came and asked you for land. We said we wouldn’t give the land to them, but in the end we lost the land.
Shao: Lost the land?
Rong: Yes.
Shao: You said the Land Reform was in 1947.
Rong: The house sweeping started in 1947.
Shao: Didn’t the class statuses start to be defined during the house sweeping?
Rong: The class statuses were not defined yet at that time.
Shao: Then how did they do the house sweeping?
Rong: They did the house sweeping to whomever they wanted.
Shao: What did house sweeping mean?
Rong: Struggle, driving people out of their houses and distributing the rooms.
Shao: To whom?
Rong: Poor and lower middle peasants.
Shao: So the class statuses were already defined at that time?
Rong: Not defined yet. The class statuses were defined later.
Shao: Whose houses were swept?
Rong: In the first time the houses of over 20 families were swept. 21 families.
Shao: Who were the 21 families.
Rong: They were, Rong Zhongyu, my family, Mantang’s family, Shuxin’s family, Old Liu’s, Old Wu’s, Zhang Fuyong’s, Zhang Xiang’s, Zhang Rui’s, Wu Guang’s, Zhang Fuyuan’s, Zhang Fu’s, Jiusong’s… All these houses were swept. Zhang Mingyang didn’t have son but his house was swept too. Jiukui’s… was swept too… The old house of your family used to belong to Jiukui’s family…….
Shao: What was the standard of the house sweeping at that time?
Rong: There was no standard. They said, “someone’s house needs to be swept,” and then they would just go and sweep it.
Shao: Who said that?
Rong: There was someone called Wu Ying. His dad said that. He was very poor at that time.
Shao: He was a poor peasant, so whoever he claimed to be rich had to move?
Rong: Yes. It was like “whoever is better than me have to move!”
Shao: So there was no standard in differentiating who was rich and who was poor? Whoever had a large land and a good house had to be swept?
Rong: Yes. They forced whoever they wanted to move.
Shao: One family moved to another’s house and that family moved in?
Rong: Yes.
Shao: How old were you at that time?
Rong: I was 28. I was teaching in Pashang.
Shao: During the house sweeping, what did you think? Were you willing to do that?
Rong: There was nothing you could do even if you were not willing. They swept any house they decided and forced whoever they wanted to move. Shuncai’s family was forced to move out too, but later they got to move back.
Shao: So the family whose house got swept just moved out like that?
Rong: Yes. You had to move to wherever they wanted you to. If you didn’t move, they would beat you up.
Shao: Was your place here approved and built later?
Rong: No, it was built before we had to apply for the government’s approval for building new houses. We built 10 rooms.
Shao: So the house sweeping was called Land Reform.
Rong: Later there was an Outline of Land Law, during which time there was another house sweeping.
Shao: When was that? The house sweeping happened in 1947, right?
Rong: The house sweeping happened in the beginning of 1947. Later there was a checkup: whoever had more land had to give out some of their land. Later we had another house sweeping. After that there was the Outline of Land Law and we had another house sweeping. Whoever had more land had to give out some of their land.
Shao: What was the content of the Outline of Land Law?
Rong: The Outline of Land Law aimed at evenly distributing the land so that everyone got one share and abolishing the old debts so that no one owed anyone anything.
Shao: That was the Land Reform. So here was liberated in 1947?
Rong: Shunyi was not liberated yet. There was a stronghold in Fengtai.
Shao: The stronghold belonged to Kuomintang?
Rong: Yes. Kuomintang’s army stayed there. They were there in 1947 and 1948. Later once the People’s Republic of China was established, they all ran away. There were Japanese in Yangzhuang and a stronghold in Xiaodian.
Shao: You were teaching the whole time?
Rong: Yes, I was teaching the whole time.
Shao: For how many years did you teach?
Rong: I taught for 38 years. I was assigned by the Hebei Province. After I graduated, I had classmates everywhere. When I was studying at the teachers college, the school provided meals and didn’t ask for any tuition. We just needed to buy books and clothes by ourselves.
Shao: You started teaching in 1942?
Rong: Yes, in 1942.
Shao: Was here occupied by Japan in 1942.
Rong: Yes, we were ruled by the Japanese. The Japan occupied here. Half of China was occupied by the Japanese. They killed over 35,000,000 Chinese people. In Nanjing they killed over 300,000 people in one single city. They had a competition among themselves to see who killed more people. You see, the Japanese at that time…
Shao: Did the Japanese kill many people here?
Rong: They killed quite a few here. There was a Red Eye Army. Once they killed 27 people.
Shao: What was the Red Eye Army?
Rong: Openly they claimed to be anti-Japanese, but in fact they just robbed people. Later they were called the Red Eye Army, which was in fact just the Red Army.
Shao: Was the Red Army the one in the Long March? Which later became the Eighth Route Army?
Rong: Yes, the Eighth Route Army. They killed the Japanese. Zheng Zihou was the leader. There were over 800 people.
Shao: Was this a regular army of the Communist Party or just a group of bandits?
Rong: They robbed people. They were first called Red Army. Later here we called them Red Eye Army. They robbed people.
Shao: They robbed the ordinary people, or?
Rong: The local people. Therefore they were called Red Eye Army. Quite a few people here joined the Red Eye Army. All locals. They went to rob people.
Shao: Whom did they rob?
Rong: The ordinary people.
Shao: So weren’t they just bandits?
Rong: They were like bandits.
Shao: Did they fight against the Japanese?
Rong: They fought against the Japanese once. Later Japan surrendered.
Shao: Who fought when Japan surrendered?
Rong: Japan surrendered on September 2, 1938. A classmate of mine told me, “Rong Shutang, all the Japanese in your village, together with the puppet army, went to live in Dongmen and went to carry water in Pashang. There are lots of people.” There were many people in the Red Eye Army. Qiao Shan was caught by the Japanese. He wanted to surrender or do something else, claiming that they couldn’t catch him. In fact, the Japanese was very ambitious, and Qiao Shan was caught. One of his granddaughters called him Siye and said,” Siye, Siye, the situation is very back. Lots of people were caught and brought to Pashang.” Thirteen child soldiers were killed in Pashang.
Shao: Child soldiers?
Rong: Yes, child soldiers. Teenagers who became soldiers.
Shao: Thirteen of them were killed?
Rong: Yes. Thirteen of them were killed. After they were caught, they were divided into two groups. “Who still wants to work?” “Me!” Then that person had to stand on one side. “I don’t want to work!” That person then stood on the other side. Those who said they didn’t want to work went home, while those who said they wanted to continue were all tied up. Lots of people went to watch and the Japanese had to drive people away. However, someone hit a mine and they were all killed there. One of them did not die but was discovered by others, “how come you are not dead yet.” He was eventually beaten to death by others.
Shao: So the Japanese did something good here?
Rong: There was no Japanese in Yangzhuang in the beginning. Ever since the Red Eye Army appeared, the Japanese came too. The Japanese also killed lots of people. In the beginning when holding meetings, everyone was scared.
Shao: There were meetings under the rule of Japan too?
Rong: We didn’t have any meeting here. They weren’t somewhere else and held the meetings there. Here was under the rule of that place, while the northwestern corner was under the rule of Shunyi County.
……(Chitchat, omitted)
Rong: There was no communist party at that time. They didn’t come until 1937. At that time, many places like Pashang, Shaling, Zhumazhuang and others had poor people meetings. They held secrete meetings at night and used clapping as their secrete code. I heard them signaling for meetings in Pashang.
Shao: Were they people from the communist party?
Rong: Something like that. They hadn’t joined the communist party yet but they already had an organization.
Shao: The Checkup and house sweeping you mentioned were probably done by these people, right? Were they developed from the poor people meetings?
Rong: Yes, they were developed from the poor people meetings. All in the villages in the east.
Shao: Poor people meeting? They were not called the communist party?
Rong: Yes. Later they were called the communist party. Everyday after 10 o’clock, they started whistling, clapping, and having meetings. No one was administering here at that time. The county in charge was over 22 miles away from here, very far away. Many places very far away were administered by a county.
Shao: When were the class statuses defined after the Checkup?
Rong: In 1948. Those with an exploitation rate of over 25% were rich peasants.
Shao: What was exploitation?
Rong: How many people you hired to work, and how many people farmed were all counted into the exploitation. Then you calculated an average amount. If it was over 25%, you were classified as a landlord or rich peasant. If lower than 25%, you were classified as a middle peasant.
Shao: What did the landlords mean? They had more land and property than the rich peasants?
Rong: Debts. How many debts your family gave out and how many people you hired, all counted into the exploitation.
Shao: The average number of the land?
Rong: Yes. Hiring labor and giving out debts were counted as exploitation.
Shao: After that, the house sweeping happened and the land was distributed?
Rong: Right.
Another Interview
Rong: I came back once the movement started.
Shao: What movement? The Cultural Revolution?
Rong: Anti-rightist movement, Four Cleanups Movement and Cultural Revolution. These three movements. I came back during the Four Cleanups. After I came back, the policies changed again, and that started.
Shao: You came back during the Four Cleanups?
Rong: Hua Guofeng was the Prime Minister and he said, “I don’t have the knowledge to be (the Prime Minister). If you don’t have knowledge, I’ll trust you. If you have knowledge, I won’t trust you.” At that time the veteran revolutionaries were all overthrown, including supreme commanders like Liu Shaoqing, Peng Dehuai, and He Long.
Shao: That was during the Cultural Revolution.
Rong: Yes. Peng Dehuai was beaten by three belts, but he still refused to admit. Others said, “you oppose Chairman Mao.” He said, “I don’t oppose Chairman Mao.” They used sticks to hit him and broke his ribs. He Long asked Prime Minister Zhou to protect him. Prime Minister Zhou said, “I’ll protect you.” However, when Prime Minister Zhou went abroad to do some business, the Red Guard Army caught him. Later when Prime Minister Zhou enquired about him, others said, “we don’t know what happened. Some people from the Red Guard Army came and took him away.” They took him away, locked him at some place and beat him to death. Later when Prime Minister Zhou met He Long’s wife, he said, “I let him down. He asked me to protect him but I failed.” Later at his memorial meeting, other officials only bowed three times, Prime Minister Zhou bowed seven times.
Shao: Why were you transferred during the Four Cleanups?
Rong: Because of my backward thinking.
Shao: Did they force you to wear a hat?
Rong: No.
Shao: That’s better. What did backward thinking mean?
Rong: My ideological learning was not deep enough and I said something wrong.
Shao: What did you say at that time?
Rong: During the Great Leap Forward when we were eating at the communal canteen, each person was assigned 28 Jin of grains and we ordinary people each obtained 14 Jin of grains. When they distributed the grains, they said, “you should give the young people some of your grains.” I said, “28 Jin of grains is already very scarce. What can I eat if I give others some?” There was a secretary in Jingtuo. That village produced 210 thousand Jin of grains, and they were asked to hand in 180 thousand Jin as tax. He said, “what can our members eat?” Just because of that single question, he was sent to Xiaodian for reeducation through labor and later was criticized in Zhuangshang, just because of that single question. Later when Four Cleanups started, he listened to the radio in the evening. His son wanted to turn off the radio, but he said, “don’t turn it off. I’m still listening.” Later he died while listening to the radio. Rumor had it that he was scared to death, worrying about what others may do to him.
Shao: People started to be criticized and struggled during the Four Cleanups?
Rong: Yes.
Shao: What were the rightists at school you mentioned about?
Rong: That was during the Anti-rightist movement in 1957. Why did Deng Xiaopeng lost power three times and regained power three times? Chairman Mao asked him to be in charge of the Anti-rightist Movement, but Deng Xiaoping said, “I don’t want to do it.” Okay, if you don’t want to do it, you’ll lose the power. After he lost his power, Deng Xiaoping was smart enough to regain the power. Later Deng Xiaopeng was asked to be in charge of the Great Leap Forward, but he said, “no, I don’t know how to do it.” He then lost his power again. However, later he regained his power again and was asked to be in charge of the Cultural Revolution. He said, “I don’t know how to do it.” That was how he lost his power three times and regained his power three times. After Chairman Mao passed away, Hua Guofeng and Li Xiannian went to talk to Ye Jianying and said it was time to do something with the Gang of Four. Ye Jianying said, “I’m good at fighting wars, but I don’t know how to do other things. Go and talk to Deng Xiaopeng. Talk to that shorty.” When they caught the Gang of Four, they had four groups, one in charge of Jiang Qing, one in charge of Zhang Chunqiao, one in charge of Wang Hongwen and one in charge of Yao Wenyuan. After they decided on a time, all four groups took action at the same time. Jiang Qing was reading documents while others entered and caught her. After the four of them were caught, they were all sent to a prison in Beijing. The secretary of Shanghai whose last name was Ma, he said how easy it was to catch all of them.
Shao: The teachers had a difficult time too when everyone was eating at the communal canteen, right?
Rong: After the Seventeenth National Congress of the Communist Party, I became a teacher again. The salary was raised. We had non-staple foods and received coupons for them. The teachers in the villages who cooked for themselves received 2 Yuan each month as subsidy and 5 Yuan of non-staple foods.
Shao: After such policies were implemented, did you still teach? For how many years did you teach?
Rong: I taught for 38 years in total.
Shao: How many years were during the Four Cleanups?
Rong: 13 years, so I only taught for 24 years. The rest was all spent on movements.
Shao: Were you attacked during the movements?
Rong: Yes. I had a difficult time during the Cultural Revolution.
Shao: For what reason? What was your charge?
Rong: My charge was backward thinking. At that time teachers were all caught. Groups after groups of teacher were caught.
Shao: The Checkup you mentioned was around the Liberation?
Rong: When the Checkup started, we were not liberated yet. That was in 1946 or 1947. At that time, Li Futai and Yang Zongshan were both in Pashang, and they were sent to the Public Security Bureau. I left in 1946, and they were sent there after I left. I noticed that things in Pashang were quite chaotic, so I told myself I should get myself transferred as soon as possible. They were beaten badly.
Shao: What were their charges? Who did that?
Rong: They didn’t tell you what your problems were. They just claimed that they were Kuomintang. You had to admit. If you didn’t admit, you would get beaten up.
Shao: The Communist Party did that?
Rong: Yes, the Communist Party did that.
Shao: What was the Checkup that you mentioned?
Rong: The Checkup was the equal distribution of land.
Shao: Was that before the Liberation?
Rong: Yes, before the Liberation.
Shao: The Checkup started before the Liberation?
Rong: Here was liberated after 1948. The equal distribution of land was in 1947. Lots of people were beaten to death. Many teachers were executed. Lots of people were beaten to death.
A: I was born in 1940. I remember what happened during the equal distribution of land. People went to share the properties of the landlords and took their jars. Those students during that time. I was at school. Younger kids didn’t dare to do anything, but the older kids were… The children of landlords and rich peasants had to stay in dark rooms. Whenever others wanted new belts or pants, they would exchange them with the children of landlords and rich peasants. After that, there was a temple in my family, and the students from the poor and lower middle peasant families beat the children of landlords and rich peasants there.
Rong: Things like that happened in many places, in Yangzhuang, Jiaogezhuang, Zhanggezhuang. People would eat pickled vegetables so as to make phlegm, say “open your mouth” and then spit into your mouth. They forced others to admit that they were members of Kuomintang.
Shao: Were they members of Kuomintang?
Rong: No. There was someone called Wang Zuochen in Shuangying. He was sentenced to life imprisonment. After Deng Xiaoping gained power, he grant amnesty to him. At that time, everyone wrote about him. If you didn’t admit, they beat you badly. Xu Gengjiu from Hebei Village was beaten to death because he denied. I was teaching in Dugezhuang. I saw people beating others in Nancai Bridge. Many doctors went there too. The doctors looked at someone and realized that he was dying. He died on his way to the hospital. Later after investigation, that person was no a member of Kuomingtang at all.
Shao: Many people were wrong accused and beaten up, right?
Rong: Lots of teachers were beaten to death. If they didn’t admit, they would get beaten up. Whoever was slightly famous were arrested. Lots of people were killed unjustly.
